Do your associates just not care?

Our AS1 comp was 340 and AS2 was 385. So I think they're reasonably comped but what do I know. They also get co invest with leverage.

However, our associates just don't seem to care. I'll be in office and they'll say hey sorry heading out going to soulcycle and go MIA for an hour at 6pm on a Tuesday ? Or 1pm on an IC submission weekend when the partner is waiting for a draft? They'll be on video 20% of the time on calls and when I ask for notes because I missed something they will have missed it too 9/10 times and I'll need to embarrass myself and ask the partner. As soon as they get 2-3 tasks they immediately start saying they have a lot to do and asking what priorities are and it's too much so I've stopped asking for 20-25% of things including the most fundamental excel side analysis which I just complete on my own and the partner and I handle. This is on top of legal work streams I handle, general deal shepherding and owning all facts, numbers, process updates including model. I.e. I get asked about model, valuation not the associates. They can do NDAs I guess which is a plus. When I ask to schedule calls they forward to the admin. I asked you because there's some commercial judgment on who to include, which to prioritize. I can also just ask my admin too.


Even the most basic tasks like calling and Uber when we're traveling and at the airport fall on me because they're absentmindedly scrolling instagram.

Their first reaction to a new deal / task is "how long will this take?" "Will it ruin my weekend?" "I have plans and don't want to scramble last minute."

We also don't require MBAs and heavily promote from within. I just don't get it. Why did you join if you didn't care?

Comments ( 106 )

Controversial
  • VP in PE - LBOs
5d
dumbanalyst1234

Honest question. What's wrong with taking an hour on a Tuesday to work out? Assuming they will log back in after to complete work

This is an old school mentality so maybe newer folks will disagree with me. But as an associate your orientation should be how do I make the life of the people above me easier to justify my existence and ultimately be considered indispensable? You do that by helping them finish their day earlier not submitting things later so they have to stay up later and it goes up the chain or spills into the next day.

the practical advice is work out early or late and on the weekends. But unfortunately it's not possible in this job for an associate to go at prime time gym hours. That's the trade off

Most Helpful
  • Associate 3 in PE - LBOs
5d

You sound a bit painful tbh dude. You don't own them. You're 2-3 years above them, big deal. If you want the good ones to work with you and stay then you also need to make it attractive to stay

  • 40
  • 5
5d
brickcage , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Workout classes are at specific times. And early mornings aren't realistic for everyone, especially juniors being asked to pull late nights.

The rest has a good bit of merit, but keep in mind if your firm recruits like most, these associates don't actually want to be there. Offers are given out for on cycle recruiting far before people have an understanding of if they like IB , let alone PE . The associate job is sold as a lifestyle step up from being an analyst in banking, but in most cases is totally false (and certainly with expectations like yours from seniors). The money is good but not good enough, and the path to promotion is long and fairly arbitrary.

Anyway, if the need for something is truly an emergency, then you need to make that clear. But very few things should rise to the level of being forced to skip a regular workout carved out of an hour in the evening. I could certainly care less about getting something to my VP an hour earlier because I give a shit about him getting to bed sooner.

  • Associate 3 in PE - LBOs
4d

This is ridiculous. If I'm working 80+ hours a week, probably on some bs work you created, then I don't need to skip the gym to justify my existence. Keep patting yourself on the back for hopping on the phone with legal and agreeing with whatever approach they told you was best. And no shit you get asked about the model, would hope you have some clue how it works if you're headed to IC with it.

Did you ever tell them not to use the admin, or are you just getting salty about it without communicating anything?

You sound like a real drag to work for. Hope you enjoy the next 20 years of answering your partner's emails within 30 seconds on Saturdays.

  • Principal in PE - LBOs
5d

It's context specific. If your boss is waiting for something, then use your brain and don't take 2 hours off in the middle of the evening. If it's for something a couple days out then no problem working on it how you see fit. I've always made it clear that I'm fine with the latter, but the problem now is that I'm seeing associates disappearing when we have things that are due urgently, which causes problems for everyone up the chain.

  • Associate 3 in IB - Gen
5d

I agree with this about setting expectations for timelines but having worked with a few different mid level managers in PE (ignore my title), they always treat every work stream as a fire drill and then sit on the work for days at a time when it was never urgent (obviously their schedules are much busier but if there's no true deadline no need to create false deadlines just to sit on work). This then leads to no time able to do anything else and always walking on pins and needles because if they need something, drop everything to make sure every task is done asap.

Not everyone is also like this so probably my luck of the draw. As with most of these jobs, comes down to who you work with (contrary to most, my managers in banking were like the above comment and knew when to say things were urgent and when it wasn't worth staying up late on a random weekday / save stamina).

  • 4
  • VP in PE - Other
4d

We have a guy is not performing, has been made aware of it, and he's still fucking about like we're all chilling. Simple deliverables taking days to complete. Genuinely can't get my head around it, if I knew I was not performing I'd be working my ass off to at least not that have brought up at next performance discussion. Nobody's hiring right now either so fuck knows what his plan is if he gets laid off.

  • VP in PE - Other
4d

Debatable. The larger fund sizes recruit so far in advance that some people slip through the cracks. They spend 2 years burning themselves out in IB , then hit their PE seat. By this point some have already decided they don't want to work in finance long term, so they'll do the minimum to not get let go, earn their salary, an okay bonus and then leave for an MBA since they're on a 2 year programme. If you know you're not looking to return and just want to build up the resume, a lot lose their drive to be serious.

  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
5d

Dang, I'm fighting for my life til like midnight every night responsible for all the analysis, modeling, notes, all the admin stuff etc. Hopefully a few years down the road this will start to open more doors if my peers at MF's are all clowning like what OP has said. currently at a $700mm fund with a big drop in comp compared to OP's associates.

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
5d

I work MM in London, I was wondering similar. I guess the challenge might be fewer positions as the crap ones churn and we age!

  • VP in PE - LBOs
5d

OP you seem like the problem here

turns out most people don't wanna work for an insecure hardo

I'm also going to guess you're not a big goer of the gym yourself

Idk dude I consider myself lucky to be here I used to clean a liquor store

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
5d

Are your associates affluent kids from good backgrounds, if so they have no reason to care. Hire more PSGs

  • 3
  • Intern in IB-M&A
5d

*PSDs

Poor, smart, and a deep desire to become rich

- Alan C. Greenberg

  • 1
5d
dutchduke , what's your opinion? Comment below:

This is something that needs to be addressed quickly. Get in someone's face and tell them to get it done. If they don't respond then they aren't interested in the job.

Hire slow, fire fast. A million kids want that seat. I don't agree with some posters, you don't sound like a psycho type A guy, the stuff you are asking for us pretty basic.

5d
mm_banker , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I agree with you 100% (VP in PE here) and have experienced the same issue with my juniors. Apparently, attending personal dinners on a weekday is more important than attending advisor calls or addressing a time sensitive matter that a partner specifically asked for.

Most of my peers at other firms are experiencing it as well. It's just supply and demand tbh. Over the past few years, there has been a sizeable jump in opportunities on the buyside while the talent pool has shrunk as more bankers have pursued tech / entrepreneurship / other opportunities. A lot of people were also able to raise first-time funds in the past 2-3 years which wasn't as easy prior to the pandemic. My guess is some of these funds will shut down over the next 4-5 years which will change the supply/demand dynamics back in the employers favor and change this type of associate behaviour. Look at what's happening to the tech sector after hearing many programmers/software engineers brag about working 3 jobs at once and still having time for SoulCycle / travelling all over the world / etc.

  • 3
  • Associate 2 in PE - Other
5d

Gen Z is soft, even softer than millennials somehow (see comments in this thread) and I already feel like I'm way less hard working than my parents.

No point in complaining though, highly doubt it's going to change.

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
4d

Agree - an old associate during my banking analyst years told me ever year the quality gets worse, and I also never performed at the level the top people older than me did. And now I see it with my analysts and interns being worse, even though I'm just an associate

  • 1
5d
jl12 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

When I hear about these types types of situations I generally think of three things.

First, they genuinely think they are competently doing their role. Has this expectation been communicated to them? It is entirely possible that if you told them to be better that they could step up and be better

Second, have you trained them? If the work product isn't up to standard did you show them what standard was?

Third, what is your interview process like? Most of what you seem (rightfully) concerned about appears to be things you can screen for in the interview process.

It is entirely possible (and plausible) that these employees are duds. They could have just slipped through and just be a good interview. However, PE isn't that difficult of a field. I would be surprised if they actually are such duds. But it is possible. I don't work with them so I don't know.

  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
5d

It sounds like you do have some bad associates and I've definitely witnessed some similar stuff amongst juniors at my firm (ignore the title, I'm a senior associate at an UMM that hires analysts as well as associates out of banking).

Honest question though, along the lines of what someone alluded to above with PE not being the path it once was. Do you ever wonder if the value of the marginal hour of work has just come down super meaningfully in this industry? The reality in the UMM space in my experience is that everything is banked, been owned by multiple sponsors for the last decade, being sold in a competitive auction etc. It rarely feels like all that incremental diligence is really uncovering some unique insight that will give you an edge in these highly efficient processes that generally result in some sponsor paying a market clearing price.

The reality is the funds need to deploy all this capital, and getting deals done is a result of where partners feel they want to lean in to get something across the line. As a result, I feel a bit less motivated to go the extra mile given it's all a bit of a dog and pony show at the end of the day.

Maybe our firm just has a shit process or the tides will turn on this dynamic if the industry isn't able to ride a levered beta trade for the next decade. We'll have to see.

  • 5
  • Associate 1 in CorpDev
4d

You need to reset some expectations but also realize not everything is urgent. There is endless work one can do that can add value but doesn't get done because of competing priorities. Some of the stuff you mentioned like not taking notes or coordinating travel is a bit ridiculous and needs to end immediately. With regards to everything else, I think you need to examine it case by case. It really comes down to understanding what things are truly priorities and your juniors' capacity. They might be undertrained on certain things and could just be slower than you'd expect. For example, if they are lacking in Excel skills (efficiency or know-how), set the expectation that they need to get better and maybe invest some time in actually coaching them.

  • Prospect in PE - Growth
4d

OP sounds like he hasn't gotten laid in like 3 years jesus christ. Have you tried directly communicating? Most IBs don't teach analysts how to read minds during their stints, so its helpful if you actually verbalize your expectations rather than just bitching when they're not met. Also, go to the fucking gym. If you're mad at your associate for getting a 1hr pump in, you're a fucking pansy. If anything get in there and spot him.

  • 4
  • 4
  • VP in PE - LBOs
4d

OP sounds like he hasn't gotten laid in like 3 years jesus christ. Have you tried directly communicating? Most IBs don't teach analysts how to read minds during their stints, so its helpful if you actually verbalize your expectations rather than just bitching when they're not met. Also, go to the fucking gym. If you're mad at your associate for getting a 1hr pump in, you're a fucking pansy. If anything get in there and spot him.

Fuck that go to the gym on your time not mine. Not my problem you're not an "early bird" become one

  • Associate 3 in PE - LBOs
4d

Sounds like you're the problem, get a life. Glad I don't work for your undoubtedly shit fund that fuels your insecurities

thanks for all the MS

  • 3
4d
brickcage , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Lol the more you comment the more clear it becomes you are an awful person to work for. Good luck. No wonder your associates are checked out.

  • 3
  • 1
  • Investment Analyst in HF - Other
4d

Do your associates have carry? If not, that's a pretty big reason for a lot of it in my view. The whole notion of them being expected to be fully motivated by the fact that you do direct promo is unrealistic - I'm sure your firm like most others in PE is incredibly late to notify of if the promo is actually there and you should know that it's always uncertain in this industry (can quickly get screwed by a lateral hire above you, etc.).

Agree with a lot of the general sentiment, but you have to realize that the world is changing and people aren't necessarily willing to sacrifice their entire lives to pursue a PE career at this point

  • Associate 3 in IB - Gen
4d

In defense of the original post, if there are important timelines (submitting to IC and have to get a draft to partner for review) then yes your Associate should be locked in and not aloof. But  many work streams are not time sensitive to that extent and you shouldn't have your juniors think everything is a fire drill (otherwise will lead to burn out and ultimately churn).

Probably should over-communicate with juniors with regards to timing, etc. (and vice versa they should check in with you too). Truly believe a lot of these issues are just related to lack of communication and poor time management, not lack of ability (most people can do these jobs, it's mostly about the right fit and culture for each person to thrive in).

  • 1
4d
iggs99988 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Tbh, and a bit off-topic from comments above, you sound like you're gonna burn out in a few years. Definitely don't sound like Partner material or "I'm gonna be doing this for the next 30 years".

People that do IB / PE for life are jacks of all trades...and masters of all trades. I.E. incredibly analytically sharp but also incredibly politically and socially cunning, finding ways to get people to do things that often people don't want to do/realize they did for you.

You wanna be the guy that the Partners look at and say "Wow this guy is always dependable/comes through....and makes it look so easy running the junior team while being a real human" and that associates say "This guy hasn't drunk the kool-aid, is relatable and views me as an equal rather than as my boss, while getting shit done together". Whether either of those hypothetical statements would be completely true is irrelevant...but that's the perception you're going for from your seniors and your juniors.

You just kinda sound like a grindy undifferentiated execution monkey .. no offense .. with pretty low emotional EQ.

  • VP in PE - LBOs
4d
iggs99988

Tbh, and a bit off-topic from comments above, you sound like you're gonna burn out in a few years. Definitely don't sound like Partner material or "I'm gonna be doing this for the next 30 years".

People that do IB / PE for life are jacks of all trades...and masters of all trades. I.E. incredibly analytically sharp but also incredibly politically and socially cunning, finding ways to get people to do things that often people don't want to do/realize they did for you.

You wanna be the guy that the Partners look at and say "Wow this guy is always dependable/comes through....and makes it look so easy running the junior team while being a real human" and that associates say "This guy hasn't drunk the kool-aid, is relatable and views me as an equal rather than as my boss, while getting shit done together". Whether either of those hypothetical statements would be completely true is irrelevant...but that's the perception you're going for from your seniors and your juniors.

You just kinda sound like a grindy undifferentiated execution monkey .. no offense .. with pretty low emotional EQ.

"No offense" hahaha man I struck a nerve huh

  • 2
4d
iggs99988 , what's your opinion? Comment below:
iggs99988

Tbh, and a bit off-topic from comments above, you sound like you're gonna burn out in a few years. Definitely don't sound like Partner material or "I'm gonna be doing this for the next 30 years".

People that do IB / PE for life are jacks of all trades...and masters of all trades. I.E. incredibly analytically sharp but also incredibly politically and socially cunning, finding ways to get people to do things that often people don't want to do/realize they did for you.

You wanna be the guy that the Partners look at and say "Wow this guy is always dependable/comes through....and makes it look so easy running the junior team while being a real human" and that associates say "This guy hasn't drunk the kool-aid, is relatable and views me as an equal rather than as my boss, while getting shit done together". Whether either of those hypothetical statements would be completely true is irrelevant...but that's the perception you're going for from your seniors and your juniors.

You just kinda sound like a grindy undifferentiated execution monkey .. no offense .. with pretty low emotional EQ.

"No offense" hahaha man I struck a nerve huh

Not really. Just pointing out a personal observation. You can take it or leave it :)

  • Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
4d

When I ask to schedule calls they forward to the admin. I asked you because there's some commercial judgment on who to include, which to prioritize. I can also just ask my admin too.

Ignore title my ASO years are behind me.

This is the only part from what you've mentioned is unreasonable. Asking associates to play admin is categorically different than asking them to be available.

4d
chihayafull , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Seeing as how I'm likely going back to PE after B School this'll bite me in the ass, but honestly it's funny as fuck how many threads there are of butthurt VPs.

Some of the things mentioned are definitely ridiculous, but I'm glad associates are taking a stand and doing what they want to do, cuz apparently y'all can't do shit about it except complain on WSO . They haven't ever had this much power, so it's honestly kind of funny to see it play out. And sorry, they went to Soul Cycle because they realized that the "urgent" request had no practical urgency, and realized that the VP either (1) didn't know that, (2) is getting way too antsy, or most likely (3) didn't even attempt to push back with the Partner, knowing full well there was no urgency to this task, and promised that they'll look into by the next day for no fucking reason, and then pings the associate. Thus, Associate takes it into their own hands because they don't respect a spineless VP and forces him to stay up late to review some dumb ass piece of work that's gonna get completely overhauled the next day when the partner changes his mind. Finally, there can be consequences for seniors not respecting juniors' time.

Fundamentally different from my years getting absolutely fucking destroyed, and then when I finally get the duck out of there my VP gives me the parting feedback of "you've been great, but sometimes you seem unhappy."

  • VP in PE - LBOs
4d

chihayafull

Seeing as how I'm likely going back to PE after B School this'll bite me in the ass, but honestly it's funny as fuck how many threads there are of butthurt VPs.

Some of the things mentioned are definitely ridiculous, but I'm glad associates are taking a stand and doing what they want to do, cuz apparently y'all can't do shit about it except complain on WSO . They haven't ever had this much power, so it's honestly kind of funny to see it play out. And sorry, they went to Soul Cycle because they realized that the "urgent" request had no practical urgency, and realized that the VP either (1) didn't know that, (2) is getting way too antsy, or most likely (3) didn't even attempt to push back with the Partner, knowing full well there was no urgency to this task, and promised that they'll look into by the next day for no fucking reason, and then pings the associate. Thus, Associate takes it into their own hands because they don't respect a spineless VP and forces him to stay up late to review some dumb ass piece of work that's gonna get completely overhauled the next day when the partner changes his mind. Finally, there can be consequences for seniors not respecting juniors' time.

Fundamentally different from my years getting absolutely fucking destroyed, and then when I finally get the duck out of there my VP gives me the parting feedback of "you've been great, but sometimes you seem unhappy."

"Ya'll can't do shit." Edited, too personally revealing. Let's just say the partner and principals rely on me to judge promotion worthiness since they're too removed. Maybe if it's a 2 and out sure I can't do shit. But if not, then I can

  • Associate 3 in PE - LBOs
4d

And that's why you're crying on WSO about how your associates don't respect you and hate your guts? Sounds real powerful man

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
3d

Everyone think's they're gonna be a player's coach until they're actually in the driver's seat

Sounds like you've never, really , been in a position of overseeing others on a day to day basis to get deals done - sounds like you were IB analyst->PE associate -> MBA , meaning you were always producing work, not the one ultimately responsible, outside of lower priority deals where a top analyst/associate would work directly with senior management.

Just wait man. It'll happen to you. You're cranking through something that has multiple senior eyeballs on it, all is looking great, you send what should be the last turn of comments and....nothing. No response. 1 hour goes by (you thought you'd be done by now...), so you swing by the associate's desk - gone. You email to chase . 20 min later you get: "will revert back to this in a few". Partner/MD texts or emails "where are we on this? Need to review before too late." And suddenly you're stuck. You ping the associate on realistic timing, and get crickets. You didn't think you had to communicate how important this, or the expectation that in the process of turns/revisions, one shouldn't step out, because it should have been obvious especially to associates who have 2.5 years of finance experience. Suddenly though, YOU are the asshole, because you are now the face of the delay to the partner, and you are the face of forcing the associate to work when they don't want to.

So yea, maybe you'll be the most loved and revered VP who never has an issue...but not likely.

4d
IncomingIBDreject , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Our AS1 comp was 340 and AS2 was 385. So I think they're reasonably comped but what do I know.

This is expected total compensation correct? What is the base salary? I think in general there's a skeptical feeling among younger workers about actually realizing the bonus because we've seen companies even in years of record profits give a pitiful bonus due to the "pandemic". That doesn't even count this past year where some firms gave $0 bonus. In the past trust existed between both the firm and employee in terms of earning deferred comp with the bonus, but that trust is quickly eroding imo. It might help to just shift more of your compensation towards base which is actually guaranteed, because that's the number that is getting a lot more weight these days.

Array

  • 1
  • Research Analyst in HF - Event
3d
IncomingIBDreject

Our AS1 comp was 340 and AS2 was 385. So I think they're reasonably comped but what do I know.

This is expected total compensation correct? What is the base salary? I think in general there's a skeptical feeling among younger workers about actually realizing the bonus because we've seen companies even in years of record profits give a pitiful bonus due to the "pandemic". That doesn't even count this past year where some firms gave $0 bonus. In the past trust existed between both the firm and employee in terms of earning deferred comp with the bonus, but that trust is quickly eroding imo. It might help to just shift more of your compensation towards base which is actually guaranteed, because that's the number that is getting a lot more weight these days.

What somewhat respectable PE firms gave zero bonuses?  Its pretty hard to get under the expected total compensation, much less getting a zero in PE .

  • Intern in PE - Other
4d

Seems like your associates need to trade in their soulcycle memberships for some work ethic.

  • Associate 1 in IB - Cov
3d

Tell me what shop you're at that's paying $340k for a 1st year associate and I'll replace your associate tomorrow

  • Investment Analyst in IB-M&A
3d

I'm a director . My analysts care. My VPs care. My associates do not care at all.

  • 1
3d

I think you answered your own question: although they joined, they didn't care.

That is because a big part of PE recruiting is dead set on prestige --- which is also true in investment banking. When people recruit for PE , they have to "fit in", and on top of that they better go to one of the targets. That essentially fills the pipeline with lots of wannabes who don't exactly love PE . The system is essentially weeding out some high-quality, non-target school/bank candidates who actually like this stuff.

  • 1
  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
3d

Ok, but that's how it's always been, so that doesn't explain the observed trend. I think what's more of a mystery here is what is new that's driving the general apathy towards the work.

  • VP in PE - LBOs
3d

Ok, but that's how it's always been, so that doesn't explain the observed trend. I think what's more of a mystery here is what is new that's driving the general apathy towards the work.

My guess having done banking / gone to college for a year under Covid where you were remote with no accountability, being jealous of all the "day in the life" videos of tech workers doing nothing, seeing tiktok influencers getting paid millions to dance around, and the greater focus on mental health (which is a good thing except when it leads people to self and over diagnose and then self medicate with random workout lessons in the middle of the day)

3d
KirkLazarus , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I love how these loser seniors complain about junior's time allocation yet they find time to come here and whine like a toddler instead of spending time with their juniors giving thorough instructions on how they want analyses done.  You are the problem - take a look in the mirror buddy.  No wonder everyone is leaving

  • 3
  • 1
3d
earthwalker7 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I suggest you make investing in each deal (or at least each deal the associate works on) absolutely mandatory.  And make that clear to any applicant who wishes to join your firm before they sign on.  That will weed out those applicants who don't care to join you to make money together, and will make sure that every employee cares A LOT about each deal they do, and what they can do post-investment to make the portcos successful.

"Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome " - Charlie Munger

3d
rabbit , what's your opinion? Comment below:

We are coming off a period where junior talent was at a premium. Buyside, tech, and tons of exit opps for kids a few months into their banking gig.

Tides have turned. Tech has blown up, macros are weak, and the status quo is shifting back tbh.

Not a lot have accepted this new reality or even begun to understand that the pendulum is starting to swing, and that junior talent doesn't have the same leverage they did a year or two ago. The "children" of 2008 know how quickly the switch flips.

Case in point, look at the number of butthurt associates on here triggered by your post lol.

2d
FIG newton , what's your opinion? Comment below:

The PE industry is top-heavy, oversaturated and severely endangered by macro factors. Associates can feel this in their bones. Who can blame them for maximizing their comfort until they move on to something bigger and better?

  • 1
  • Intern in IB-M&A
2d

If you need a new associate please feel free to respond to this message, will happily take their places and work out in the morning for that comp

2d
Kevin25 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

hire more immigrants. they'll work 24/7 for this money. for an American from rich family with good background and work experience $300-400k is not unimaginable. they know they can find something similar if they get fired, so they don't feel scared to push back.

  • VP in PE - LBOs
2d

Sometimes I worry I am pushing the my juniors too hard because the industry has changed so much since I was in their shoes... Then I read posts like this one and thank god for not making me an asshole again.

2d
IRR you ready to rumble , what's your opinion? Comment below:

As funny and entertaining as this whole thread is, I can see it being true. It's the same in RE. Daddy's kids get handed a job and don't do shit all day. There's guy and gals out there who still grind and love this business, but they're few and far between.

Also, it's not black and white. You can have a pissy VP and a shitty associate at the same time.

  • Analyst 3+ in IB - Cov
2d

I'm an AS2 in MF PE . I was in one of the last pre-COVID / WFH analyst classes in banking. I'll caveat my post by saying that it's possible the VP is too much of a hardo and the Asso is also lazy.

I've noticed that the WFH era of banking analysts is significantly worse from a hard work/willingness to grind perspective. I think your first job honestly puts a standard on what you believe work norms are in this industry. This is exacerbated by weak recruiting standards at most of the top firms, especially the ones that come off as "nice". By that I mean, if you go to work for Apollo , BX , or KKR (not a comprehensive list) you kind of know what you are getting into but if you go to work at one of the other large PE firms that have a friendlier atmosphere, there's a higher chance that someone who looks great on paper sifted through the cracks. I can say this firsthand by experiencing three on-cycle recruiting processes since I started. The model tests have gotten easier (some are no longer a model and instead you are supposed to find errors, the amount of the template that's completed is higher, etc.). So you have a generation of associates whose first job experience was relatively easy (yes banking during COVID was hard but it also wasn't hard because as much as you worked, you also didn't have to show up in person to early meetings after a late night and you could take a break during the day vs. having to sit at your desk to look busy or go for a 15-20 min walk max to clear your head in Midtown) and who had lower hurdles to jump over to get their PE jobs .

The interview questions can vary a lot by the candidate as well as most PE firms have the mandate to increase diversity in their ranks from LPs. I won't say that diverse candidates are worse at the job at all but I will say that the chance you hire an Asian / Indian male who isn't proficient in accounting, modeling, etc. is much lower. Not to say those are the best associates either as executive presence and other soft skills vary a lot from person to person but you know that some people can just get the job done even if they aren't VP material off the bat.

I'm noticing this lack of interest in the job with some analysts I work with as well in OP's defense. I end up having to spend 2-3x the amount of time teaching/fixing / explaining how to do things on fairly basic tasks, which while I find frustrating, I understand because I was probably also annoying to work with when I started banking out of college as well. What's more frustrating is when you discuss a deadline for fairly basic work that comes in late or just isn't completed on a Friday afternoon (pre-6pm) and then done on Monday morning the following week. I don't like to think I'm difficult to work with and I enjoy my life outside of my work hours, however, I don't really know what to do when someone you are supposed to coach/manage decides to log-off at 5/6 pm on weekdays and doesn't work at all on the weekends. I don't require weekend work and definitely don't create fake deadlines unless someone more senior asks for something but when you start out you are going to be slow and so sometimes weekday work spills into the weekends or a little later at night. But after a few months of that you get faster and then you can fully control your schedule. I sympathize with OP on the lack of work ethic in recent grads.

Broadly though, I think anyone who is working in this industry should feel lucky to be here. A lot of the attitude of not willing to put in the time to do a good job is a sense of entitlement. There's no other job in the world that pays this well (outside of SWE / Tech PMs but that's likely to change). If you aren't willing to make that trade, then you should find a career that's more aligned with your ideal work-life balance. To think that you deserve to get paid 6x the median family wage in the U.S. and also not work harder for it feels kind of entitled. I know this is going to be a fairly unpopular opinion but you live with the choices you make. I think someone earlier in this thread referenced a social contract about what the employer offers vs what the employee offers. The other side of the contract is that this job affords a nicer lifestyle than most other jobs in the world so is it really that crazy that there are more stringent requirements to do it?

  • 7
  • 1
  • Intern in ER
2d

Ignore title, currently VP in UMM fund. Most glaring degradation of talent is lack of technical / modeling skills on the job where PE firms are essentially doing the entire finance training / ramp up process for their first year associates. At banks, that responsibility used to fall to 2nd / 3rd year analysts where 1st years would learn through observation of modeling, deck creation, ideation, ask questions, and generally learn what it means to work hard by first owning simple workstreams and ramping up into more complex aspects of the job. Remote work / WFH has absolutely set back the incoming classes putting much more pressure on PE firms to train these people up just to get to an average outcome. The fact of the matter is that PE VP's on a small 3-4 person deal team cannot generally handle the full workload of deal timelines + the invest the time to coach and train up first year assos in real-time on a deal. We've had to begin double / triple staffing assos just to give them an environment where they can learn with low / no stakes at the outset and aiming to hire 25-40% above our capacity needs knowing the throughput will be signficantly lower.

One data point: our HH has represented that model fail rates have increased from ~50% historically to 75-85% over past year or so. We toned down our case study signficantly to make easier for this exact reason and our own fail rates have gone up from ~40% historically to 85% in a fairly large same size over the past 2 months. The drop off perfectly coincides with the first IB classes that were fully remote to a tee and is a sample size of thousands of model tests administered annually.

I don't think lower pass rates on an easier case study means these individuals lack intellect or drive to do the job, they just simply do not know how to do the job at higher rates than pre-COVID. This puts a lot more pressure on mid-ranks to cover that gap knowing that lack of asso talent is not a valid excuse for poor or late work to partners...

  • 2
  • 1
2d
iggs99988 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Ignore title, currently VP in UMM fund. Most glaring degradation of talent is lack of technical / modeling skills on the job where PE firms are essentially doing the entire finance training / ramp up process for their first year associates. At banks, that responsibility used to fall to 2nd / 3rd year analysts where 1st years would learn through observation of modeling, deck creation, ideation, ask questions, and generally learn what it means to work hard by first owning simple workstreams and ramping up into more complex aspects of the job. Remote work / WFH has absolutely set back the incoming classes putting much more pressure on PE firms to train these people up just to get to an average outcome. The fact of the matter is that PE VP's on a small 3-4 person deal team cannot generally handle the full workload of deal timelines + the invest the time to coach and train up first year assos in real-time on a deal. We've had to begin double / triple staffing assos just to give them an environment where they can learn with low / no stakes at the outset and aiming to hire 25-40% above our capacity needs knowing the throughput will be signficantly lower.

One data point: our HH has represented that model fail rates have increased from ~50% historically to 75-85% over past year or so. We toned down our case study signficantly to make easier for this exact reason and our own fail rates have gone up from ~40% historically to 85% in a fairly large same size over the past 2 months. The drop off perfectly coincides with the first IB classes that were fully remote to a tee and is a sample size of thousands of model tests administered annually.

I don't think lower pass rates on an easier case study means these individuals lack intellect or drive to do the job, they just simply do not know how to do the job at higher rates than pre-COVID. This puts a lot more pressure on mid-ranks to cover that gap knowing that lack of asso talent is not a valid excuse for poor or late work to partners...

A simple and exceedingly obvious solution to the problem herein which, unsurprisingly, autismo PE employees have not come around to. Instead of hiring first-year analysts with two weeks on the desk, hire 2nd years, 3rd years, or -- gasp -- A to A promotes.

Shocking. Compelling. So brave. I know.

PE sadbois would rather lament the ruin of banking talent via 10-paragraph diatribes on WSO than use common sense. Brought to you by the same innovators whose deeply sophisticated value-add comprises "more leverage pls" and "tell management to do better".

  • Analyst 3+ in IB - Cov
10h

This isn't quite the simple solution you have proposed. Doing more banking isn't useful at all for PE . Frankly, if you spend too much time being a banker you lose critical thinking ability. Varies bank to bank but this is especially true at bulge bracket banks and any banks that are mainly doing vanilla sell-sides. Further exacerbated by path dependence of the current recruiting environment which means the smartest people end up going to buy-side from banking (I'm not even going to argue this point with you unless you work at a place like Centerview or are in Restructuring). The smartest people might not be the hardest working anymore because banking has become a joke during WFH.

2d
NuclearPenguins , what's your opinion? Comment below:

This is an interesting post and I do (generally) agree with OP's sentiment that the quality of analysts and fresh from banking associates today is worse than pre-COVID, while also acknowledging that OP may be a bit too "old school" at the same time.

Coming off a red eye so maybe not the most coherent post, but throwing out some thoughts below:

  • I think the context matters for when these associates are leaving at 6pm on a Tuesday. Are the associates and OP actively working on something together, and then the associate decides "this can wait" on their own volition to hit up Soulcycle, or is OP just expecting that if he's in the office, the associates should be too? For OP's sake I hope it's not the latter. Also - are they doing this 1-2 months in the job before earning the team's trust, or is this a year into their associate stint? Call me old fashioned but there's no way I would've dipped to go work out early on in my first post-IB stint in PE - forced myself to wake up early to fit my workouts in, or I'd go later at night if needed, but that's just me. But then if an associate has proven their ability to execute and deliver good work without being handheld, unless timing is critical there really shouldn't be any harm in them going to get a workout in
  • If there are clearly communicated deadlines and priorities for important deliverables such as IC materials that a partner is waiting for - agreed that associates should be prioritizing those (assuming OP isn't just providing comments like periods at the end of footnotes)
  • There are some things that should be nipped in the bud immediately - being off video, the travel stuff, scheduling calls - that is low hanging fruit and should be addressed immediately (whether by OP or by those higher up the food chain)
  • Curious how much context is being provided when feedback is given to the associates - I'm hoping OP is educating the associates that they're asking them to say, schedule calls, because of the commercial judgement they have, vs. associates just feeling like they're being told to do something for the sake of doing something
  • I do think there is a greater sense of entitlement and a more pervasive attitude problem with new grads. To be clear, not saying most new grads are entitled or have an attitude problem. But regardless of why (whether it's the difficulty in attaining the same quality of living as in years past, seeing peers in cushy tech jobs / stupid influencer roles), there does seem to have been a noticeable shift. A lot of "this is beneath me" / "I don't care" type of a view IMO, and seeing this at my new firm too. What's painfully clear is when you genuinely come at things from the perspective of giving advice , not even generating more work. For example, there are analysts at my firm who haven't been performing well and the seniors on the team are asking the mid-level folks to help with their quality of work, and now I'm talking like they can't even take notes correctly. Analyst sends me and another sr. associate a draft of their call notes before being sent to their group head, and it's legitimately in paragraph form only (no bullets), with a ton of mistakes (wrong company names mentioned for example), no structure / organization, and spelling / grammar errors. Feedback is hey, these might be great for your own notes, but this is what we would do if you're trying to provide a useful, succinct summary for somebody senior - maybe organize things by broad topics, use bullets, this is the correct company name, etc. Let us know if you have any questions, happy to help clarify / work things out with you live if it doesn't make sense, take your time this doesn't need to be a today thing if you're jammed, etc. And then the analyst just sends the notes straight to the group head afterwards with maybe like half the comments (at most) addressed? Like I just don't get it, even the most basic things like adding new sections and breaking into bullets weren't fixed. Just seems like a fundamental disconnect
  • I love that generally speaking the world has moved away from 5 days mandatory in-office. Flexibility of remote work is great, and I'm a big proponent of the hybrid model. But I think everyone here has to admit (even the most jaded juniors) that you just inherently learn less, especially for those that did the majority of their banking stints fully remote. Lose out on 1) overall discussions and business context of things from your normal office convos / being pulled into a room quickly to chat on things (maybe why people care less?), and 2) the live / hands-on training provided by the more senior analysts and associates. Juniors seem less prepared than they used to be, from both a soft and hard skills perspective, and when combined with the above point on attitude it's just a bad combo overall
  • I don't manage people directly after moving back to PE , but I did in my prior role. I do think some of the comments here are clearly from people who've never had to actually manage somebody vs. just executing / was an "IC" (individual contributor). I'm not talking about analysts overseeing interns or a 3rd year analyst serving as an associate on a deal, but like true reporting lines or being the clear deal QB. Associate 2 in IB-M&A had a great comment above that it's not always the VP trying to be an asshole, maybe they're getting insane pressure from their higher up, and then suddenly that VP is the one that's "fucked up". Sure, maybe that VP should communicate better or if they have a track record of saying everything is urgent when it's really not, but there also is the onus on the juniors to contextualize things and if say, an IC is coming up, maybe they should decide on their own not to go to bottomless brunch with their friends that Saturday if they know IC is on Monday and there are a lot of deliverables outstanding
  • OP - don't know the dynamics of your firm and how you're seniors treat you, but taking over workstreams for associates is just enabling the problem. Advice I got from my higher ups when I did manage people was to not do everything myself, even if "I could do it more quickly, and better". Otherwise the associates don't learn and progress, and you'll end up killing yourself and it won't be sustainable. Curious if you've given any feedback to your higher ups and what they've said about the situation, and it might be on them to step in to make clear what expectations are
  • I think this just validates that the PE firms recruiting so early is dumb as fuck. Harder to weed out bad candidates, and sometimes it's not even the candidates fault really since how are you supposed to know what you want do exactly that early on into your first job out of college
1d
rubiomn9 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Libero libero quod explicabo placeat eaque quisquam. Veritatis impedit eos eveniet ea consequatur voluptas. Aspernatur ea vero corporis et.

Et fugiat explicabo non ut. Quo ea inventore rerum et sed. Odit dolorum et a numquam deleniti. Repudiandae incidunt voluptas eveniet consectetur qui ducimus consequatur. Qui nihil modi sint enim.

Est cumque necessitatibus voluptas iusto atque et magnam. Pariatur repudiandae voluptatem sint quis est.

  • Associate 3 in IB - Gen
1d

Eligendi quaerat unde nesciunt minima mollitia. Vel animi accusamus non distinctio. Nemo assumenda at autem et ducimus aliquam. Quo error eaque quidem id doloremque voluptas.

Alias nostrum totam eos enim nisi. Voluptas in voluptatem omnis voluptas quia ad. Quo voluptatem doloribus temporibus et perferendis. Consequatur quia deleniti facere nulla suscipit atque.

Ea placeat molestiae ratione ipsam tempore. Totam voluptatum dolorem asperiores omnis corrupti deleniti enim. Vel in sunt voluptatem reprehenderit aliquid pariatur. Asperiores non praesentium voluptatem labore.

Sint officiis quod sequi molestiae quis. Quis dicta voluptatem atque soluta repudiandae laborum assumenda. Aliquid aut quibusdam quam nulla sequi. Voluptate cupiditate consequatur omnis ut porro et dignissimos. Dolore non ut iusto sed saepe ut maxime. Ut reiciendis quas ea sunt sit. Illo cupiditate voluptas corporis ut.

22h
rubiomn9 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Natus alias praesentium aut adipisci esse cumque. Similique pariatur totam sint nostrum eligendi esse. Quidem debitis temporibus fuga saepe vero sunt veritatis.

Cumque consequatur nihil consequatur et. Iusto tenetur occaecati sit vel cum culpa. Dolorum et nulla laudantium tenetur recusandae dicta. Odit in itaque hic necessitatibus placeat similique quibusdam.

Qui dolor eum consequatur cupiditate id iste. Voluptatem consectetur repudiandae nobis in velit laudantium repellat. Placeat non voluptatem rerum facilis aut error tempore. Nobis tempore non et sit sunt eum pariatur eum.

Amet voluptatem ut veniam ea eum et at. Doloremque inventore quasi consequuntur id saepe quam.

Start Discussion

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2023 Private Equity

  • The Riverside Company 99.5%
  • Warburg Pincus 98.9%
  • Blackstone Group 98.4%
  • KKR (Kohlberg Kravis Roberts) 97.9%
  • Bain Capital 97.4%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2023 Private Equity

  • Ardian 99.5%
  • The Riverside Company 98.9%
  • Blackstone Group 98.4%
  • KKR (Kohlberg Kravis Roberts) 97.9%
  • Bain Capital 97.4%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2023 Private Equity

  • The Riverside Company 99.5%
  • Bain Capital 98.9%
  • Warburg Pincus 98.4%
  • Blackstone Group 97.9%
  • Ardian 97.4%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2023 Private Equity

  • Principal (8) $676
  • Director/MD (22) $599
  • Vice President (85) $362
  • 3rd+ Year Associate (85) $276
  • 2nd Year Associate (192) $264
  • 1st Year Associate (369) $227
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (28) $157
  • 2nd Year Analyst (79) $133
  • 1st Year Analyst (227) $122
  • Intern/Summer Associate (30) $80
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (286) $58