Why Prestige Really Matters

So, everyone is a prestige whore in some way or another. Let's be honest. For every 1 person who can afford to pay cash for an S500 AMG but drives a Prius for the mileage, there are 100 million people who finance a car they can't really afford. The same applies to school - How many people take the full ride to State when they got into Harvard with no financial aid? Probably very, very few.

My point here is this; prestige matters.

But why?

I think, ultimately, people care about prestige, especially at the school level, because it provides you with opportunities. A Harvard trained English major can get a job at an investment bank, when a non-target English major is either stuck paying out the nose for a masters to be a teacher, or doing social media for their high school (hyperbole for effect).

An Internal Problem

Some people view this as a privilege thing, or injustice, or whatever you want to call it. The Haves vs the Have Nots. I think this perspective, especially seen in people who are obsessed with searching for examples of those with non-traditional backgrounds who have cracked the silk barrier, looks externally for the solution to an internal problem.

The Early Track

High finance jobs hire from prestigious schools for multiple reasons, but the main one is the quality of the candidate (eye roll). Captain Obvious here, but hear me out. You don't hire someone from a target because they went to a target. You hire someone from a target because they got into a target, and continued to perform. Getting into a target school says something about discipline, especially when most high school students are too busy trying to get laid or too undisciplined to put in the work. There are lots of other factors at play, but what I'm getting at here is the fast track isn't the fast track, its just the early track. Were you disciplined enough to get into a top 5 undergrad? Congrats, you're 4 years ahead of the majority of people. Were you disciplined enough to graduate Cum Laude? Congrats, you're light years ahead of some. Were you savvy enough to network and land a job at the top of your field, whatever it may be? You did it, but you're just scratching the surface.

The Drive to Succeed

Now, were you unable to do these things? Well, every tick on your background sets you back. Do you have gaps, did you go to a non-target, did you get a shitty GPA, etc etc etc. So you're wondering why no one with your background is an investment banker? Well there are minimal job openings, and it's incredibly competitive, so why would they hire someone like you? Most people who get these jobs have already established a track record of excellence that spans close to a decade, and they have something else that is driving them to succeed. And, 99,999 times of out 100,000, someone with your background probably isn't going to figure it out or make the effort if they do.

Stop Looking for Validation

So why does this matter? It matters because the people searching for others with non-traditional backgrounds are looking for validation, or the easy way. Everyone seeks validation at some point, but this is not the time. Someone with a non-traditional background didn't achieve success because they got lucky or because they got a chance that was handed to them when they asked nicely, they excelled because they figured out what needed to be done and set off to do it.

So you have to go Big 4 audit and bust it for 3 years, transition to TAS, study like a maniac for the GMAT, kill yourself networking to get into an M7 and compete for a job at smaller MM Banks or PE firms or Advisory shops because you still aren't quite there.

Well guess what, you figured it out before your senior year in college, and by my count, it's been 7 years of grinding. Someone who graduated at the top of their class from a target had already been grinding for 8 years from high school through undergrad.

Keep Grinding

So what are you going to do? Is this when you give up and blame the system, or is this when you realize you're an associate at a small shop and you're finally in the industry, so you step on the gas even harder? Hone your skills, keep grinding, and now, despite a different background, you have the experience and the hustle to make the next jump somewhere else. Maybe you stay put, make VP then MD and pull in a fuck ton of money because you've been working your ass off for over a decade now and you're getting a reputation in your space. So maybe you only make high 6 or 7 figures compared to 8, cry about it.

Is that not good enough because you didn't make it to GS SSG or BX HeMan Woman Haters Club or fuckin' Citadel as a PM? What the fuck? Hell, maybe you love Big 4 accounting and you never take the next step and you make partner at a massive firm and pull in a big salary with great job security and that's that. Or you can quit in your twenties and go sell fuckin' insurance because, whatever, Commerce Insurance responded to your application and made you an offer.

You and a Machete

Everyone is so concerned with making sure there is a path laid out for them, and people just assume prestige is the qualifier. Its an indicator, not a rite. There is no path - only you and a machete, and the sooner you pick it up and start hacking in the right direction, the sooner you'll get somewhere.

TL;DR - you gotta earn it.

#2 top discussion of 2018

Comments ( 96 )

6y
Uptown Girl , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I think this mostly hits it on the head. Overall, there are exceptions and for sure disadvantages, but at the end of the day, we can only do the best with what we have

  • 3
6y
Goldman Snacks , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Absolutely. I didn't want to get into bloodlines or the socio-economic stuff but it certainly plays a large factor, especially early on. Overall the point is to make the best of your own situation and work as hard as you can, because there is no career path that allows you to be lazy and immensely successful, no matter how hard you search for it on a forum. I am definitely not a traditional background person and I'm finishing up school, but I'm also not going to scour the web searching for validation that I can make it, or give up when I don't find it. Will I make less money initially than someone who goes right into the front office ? You bet. Have I already put myself at a disadvantage for the rest of my career? Most likely, but so what.

Its like the perfect 10 at the bar, are you going to not approach her because you think shes out of your league, or are you going to let her decide? There's more than one smoke bomb out there, but you're not fucking any of them if you don't make the effort.

  • 5
4y
WSJack , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Well, I am reviving this post almost 2 years later, but it helped me so much in fighting some internal issuses. One of my friends got into GS TMT SF (international student but target) and I was contemplating on how life is. I was hoping to go into a Phd in Econ to become a researcher and got into a top 10 econ program, but only realized later that Finance is what I like. He always knew what he wanted so he did the drill - Target (finance)->Top IBD . Why compare with someone else when your life is YOUR life!

  • 3
6y
QGKZ , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Looks like an outstanding post. I'm too inexperienced to know how much truth there is to it - hopefully the more experienced guys will give their input. Either way, thanks for taking the time to write it out.

Looking forward to seeing others' responses.

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6y
SSits , what's your opinion? Comment below:

We are creatures of an evolutionary process. At some point, prestige became a proxy signal for mating fitness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw2SztN0sSI

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
  • 3
1y
Kurk , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Outdated in an age of introvitro fertilization and surrogate mothers. I'd rather just clone myself with some CRISPR modifications.

6y
Gangster Putin , what's your opinion? Comment below:

There are some interesting points. Here's some things I wanted to point out:

  • This idea that all people who got into a target busted ass through high school is not entirely true. I know of plenty of people who benefited from legacy and were able to get into a target without putting in much work. On the flip side, I know people who worked their asses off but were simply drowned out in the sea of competition. Admissions for top schools has become somewhat of a shitshow, and there's no guarantee that any particular set of grades, test scores, ECs, etc. will get you in.

  • You cannot discount the family background factor. IB has become competitive enough that if you are not preparing for it by the beginning of your sophomore year (at the latest), you odds of getting in drop dramatically. Most of the kids who have found out about investment banking did so because they have family connections in the industry. This is the case at practically all targets and semi-targets.

  • We need to put to rest any talk of people earning high 6 figures, 7 figures, or 8 figures in finance. This is the domain of a very exceptional few. You need an extraordinary amount of skill, background, connections, and luck to reach that level, and even if you have all of those four things in abundance, you still might not make it.

My points above don't discount the fact that if you have the will and determination to get into IB , it can definitely be done. However, hustling and doing well in school may not be enough to get in, and there are people who have gotten in without putting even half the amount of effort that their peers have.

  • 24
6y
Goldman Snacks , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Totally agree, and I was trying to make that point that, on average (not always) sustained effort and determination will take you places you maybe didn't think were possible, so don't give up because someone maybe had an easier road. This was intended to be motivational to the people who don't have the connections, etc. I wrote this in response to recent threads that start as "What is a career in PE like vs VC" that end up being, "well you make 8 figures here and only mid 7s here". I think that is stupid, if you want to argue salary just go write a blog about rich people and try to get traffic onto your page, never mind that making more than even mid 6 figures puts you in a category with a fraction of the top 1% of earners in the world. No easy task no matter what your background is.

  • 1
4y
dsch , what's your opinion? Comment below:

This x1000.

Prestige is used as a crude indicator of intelligence and ability when in reality there are plenty of kids who do, in fact, "luck into" Ivy League schools and even "prestigious" jobs. One should always work as hard as possible and aim for the stars so to speak, even if they weren't "born into the right family" because doing so maximizes one's chance at success. But do not discount the role arbitrary luck (being born into wealth, being physically attractive, being naturally charismatic/likable) plays in the lives of many "successful" people.

I personally compare myself to my peers, not to people born in the Hamptons to white-collar parents making over 500k/year. Your ultimate success depends on where you started from and how far you've made it from that point. Many want to pat themselves on the back for a home run when they started on third base to begin with.

6y
ArcherVice , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Ultimately, most people, young and old, don't realize what it takes to "compete." Most people don't have an innate understanding about getting into a "target" school or an understanding of how competitive the job market is; in fact, most kids are told: "Employers just want to see that you're trainable." Success is built on momentum, the more "wins" you have under your belt, the easier it is to obtain more. You do that by building your pedigree, which starts with test scores, brand names on your resume and generally ends with your performance in various roles/job titles.

I don't like your initial examples; financial stupidity is still financial stupidity, irrespective of the "brand name" of the school or car. I'd rather not be a freshly minted college grad with an English degree from Harvard and $250k in student debt, especially in the pursuit of a highly unlikely IB position. You'd feel that cluster-fuck for the rest of your life.

  • 13
  • 1
6y
Goldman Snacks , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I was trying to say that the idea of prestige results in financially stupid decisions, because the idea of better opportunities clouds our judgement about long term consequences, and then the rest was supposed to highlight the importance of being realistic that you're almost guaranteed to not get the ultimate wet dream of a job right away. It definitely reads like I was advocating the debt route now that I look at it again, but I was hoping to promote exactly what you're saying about racking up small victories no matter what your circumstances are so you can build toward your goal.

  • 2
4y
ca_zeus , what's your opinion? Comment below:

But if you have that Harvard degree, you'll at least get an interview... so the bottom line is, prestige does matter, it at least gets you in the door, and the rest is up to you.

Whereas non-prestige, leads to 2nd tier companies (nothing wrong with that).

  • 1
5y
Schlongberg Sachs , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Prestige matters. That's why HYP get into IB and state-schoolers don't.

Plain and simple.

  • 3
  • 5
4y
glorydays , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I swear to God this forum is made up almost entirely of state schoolers wondering why their 3.5 GPA from UF isn't enough to land them a job at Goldman Sachs

  • 6
  • 1
4y
ethanscott , what's your opinion? Comment below:
Goldman Snacks:
So, everyone is a prestige whore in some way or another. Let's be honest. For every 1 person who can afford to pay cash for an S500 AMG but drives a Prius for the mileage, there are 100 million people who finance a car they can't really afford. The same applies to school - How many people take the full ride to State when they got into Harvard with no financial aid? Probably very, very few.

My point here is this; prestige matters.

But why?

I think, ultimately, people care about prestige, especially at the school level, because it provides you with opportunities. A Harvard trained English major can get a job at an investment bank, when a non-target English major is either stuck paying out the nose for a masters to be a teacher, or doing social media for their high school (hyperbole for effect).

Some people view this as a privilege thing, or injustice, or whatever you want to call it. The Haves vs the Have Nots. I think this perspective, especially seen in people who are obsessed with searching for examples of those with non-traditional backgrounds who have cracked the silk barrier, looks externally for the solution to an internal problem.

High finance jobs hire from prestigious schools for multiple reasons, but the main one is the quality of the candidate (eye roll). Captain Obvious here, but hear me out. You don't hire someone from a target because they went to a target. You hire someone from a target because they got into a target, and continued to perform. Getting into a target school says something about discipline, especially when most high school students are too busy trying to get laid or too undisciplined to put in the work. There are lots of other factors at play, but what I'm getting at here is the fast track isn't the fast track, its just the early track. Were you disciplined enough to get into a top 5 undergrad? Congrats, you're 4 years ahead of the majority of people. Were you disciplined enough to graduate Cum Laude? Congrats, you're light years ahead of some. Were you savvy enough to network and land a job at the top of your field, whatever it may be? You did it, but you're just scratching the surface.

Now, were you unable to do these things? Well, every tick on your background sets you back. Do you have gaps, did you go to a non target, did you get a shitty GPA, etc etc etc. So you're wondering why no one with your background is an investment banker? Well there are minimal job openings, and it's incredibly competitive, so why would they hire someone like you? Most people who get these jobs have already established a track record of excellence that spans close to a decade, and they have something else that is driving them to succeed. And, 99,999 times of out 100,000, someone with your background probably isn't going to figure it out or make the effort if they do.

So why does this matter? It matters because the people searching for others with non-traditional backgrounds are looking for validation, or the easy way. Everyone seeks validation at some point, but this is not the time. Someone with a non-traditional background didn't achieve success because they got lucky or because they got a chance that was handed to them when they asked nicely, they excelled because they figured out what needed to be done and set off to do it. So you have to go Big 4 audit and bust it for 3 years, transition to TAS, study like a maniac for the GMAT, kill yourself networking to get into an MBA business schools"> M7 and compete for a job at smaller MM Banks or PE firms or Advisory shops because you still aren't quite there. Well guess what, you figured it out before your senior year in college, and by my count, it's been 7 years of grinding. Someone who graduated at the top of their class from a target had already been grinding for 8 years from high school through undergrad.

So what are you going to do? Is this when you give up and blame the system, or is this when you realize you're an associate at a small shop and you're finally in the industry, so you step on the gas even harder? Hone your skills, keep grinding, and now, despite a different background, you have the experience and the hustle to make the next jump somewhere else. Maybe you stay put, make VP then MD and pull in a fuck ton of money because you've been working your ass off for over a decade now and you're getting a reputation in your space. So maybe you only make high 6 or 7 figures compared to 8, cry about it. Is that not good enough because you didn't make it to GS SSG or BX HeMan Woman Haters Club or fuckin' Citadel as a PM? What the fuck? Hell, maybe you love Big 4 accounting and you never take the next step and you make partner at a massive firm and pull in a big salary with great job security and that's that. Or you can quit in your twenties and go sell fuckin' insurance because, whatever, Commerce Insurance responded to your application and made you an offer.

Everyone is so concerned with making sure there is a path laid out for them, and people just assume prestige is the qualifier. Its an indicator, not a rite. There is no path - only you and a machete, and the sooner you pick it up and start hacking in the right direction, the sooner you'll get somewhere.

TL;DR - you gotta earn it.

Excellent post. Well written

Visionary | Lead | Enthusiast
  • 2
4y
H13x , what's your opinion? Comment below:
Goldman Snacks:

TL;DR - you gotta earn it.

Gotta hustle for that MONEY!

No pain no game.

4y
Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

[quote="MonacoMonkey"] As a longtime Mercedes owner (SL), there's no such thing as an "S500 AMG". (unless you're driving a knockoff). "Mercedes AMG"

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

  • 1
Funniest
4y
Dr. Rahma Dikhinmahas , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Nothing says "150k a year with no personality" like knowing a lot about Mercedes/BMW/Audi.

  • 25
4y
Sonny LoSpecchio , what's your opinion? Comment below:

One of the reasons I come to this forum so often is for quips like this one. Spot on. I cracked up laughing.

"Now you's can't leave." -Sonny LoSpecchio
4y
ethanscott , what's your opinion? Comment below:

this is totally true

Visionary | Lead | Enthusiast
4y
Anymouse , what's your opinion? Comment below:

What probably distracts the State graduates like me from this path is the fear of failure and unwillingness to take on financial risk, even though this is in theory a path open to all. Doing this without a strong business model and capital loan is also discouraging.

4y
I quit this site because of censorship , what's your opinion? Comment below:

The prestige of your university doesn't really matter at all. What matters is your intellectual horsepower, which most Ivy Leaguers (and similar) possess in abundance.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth

Dale and Krueger concluded that students, who were accepted into elite schools, but went to less selective institutions, earned salaries just as high as Ivy League grads. For instance, if a teenager gained entry to Harvard, but ended up attending Penn State, his or her salary prospects would be the same.

In the pair's newest study, the findings are even more amazing. Applicants, who shared similar high SAT scores with Ivy League applicants could have been rejected from the elite schools that they applied to and yet they still enjoyed similar average salaries as the graduates from elite schools. In the study, the better predictor of earnings was the average SAT scores of the most selective school a teenager applied to and not the typical scores of the institution the student attended.

In other words, intelligent people succeed regardless of what school they attend. The Ivy Leagues don't produce talent--they recruit it. And talent almost always rises to the top.

Array

  • 12
Most Helpful
4y
Sonny LoSpecchio , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I had a "non-traditional" upbringing relative to most finance guys and I didn't give a damn about anything (except football and girls) in high school and didn't even want to go to college. I started off at a community college part-time (worked full time in a factory) before transferring to a directional state school and getting an accounting degree. I started in public accounting and through a long series of winding moves (including three cities and three firms) I'm now about to start my first role on the buy side with a CFA Charter and CPA in hand.

So I agree with what @real_Skankhunt42" posted here. If the innate intellectual horsepower is there (and let's be honest, finance isn't rocket science) then it comes down to all the decisions you make over time, and you can gain a lot of ground.

I'm 30 now and I see guys on this forum who are still in college asking whether it's "too late" because they missed recruiting for some summer internship in IB . No, it's not too late. Not even close. I didn't even know what "investment banking" was when I graduated from a very good accounting program and joined a big CPA firm as an auditor, but here I am. Land a front-office (revenue generating) role in anything relevant--audit, consulting, transactions, etc.--and then go from there. Network hard. Pass a few CFA exams. Move to NYC , Chicago, etc. Learn everything you can from this site.

Again, neither of my parents finished college (actually, my mother didn't even go) and I graduated high school with a 2.3 GPA, and I made plenty of missteps along my path in this industry. That's how life works.

One thing I can tell you is that if you actually like finance---like you really think it's interesting and you're not just in it for money---that will shine through. It will shine in your networking, your interviews, the questions you ask, everything. And people will be much more willing to help because they will recognize that you really want to do the job and earn the salary rather than have the job and receive the salary.

"Now you's can't leave." -Sonny LoSpecchio
  • 46
4y
BankerLivesMatter , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Well said. I appreciate your comment. +1

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.
4y
alasdihsduasdguasduadsys , what's your opinion? Comment below:

thank you for sharing this study, I found it very interesting. Sam's story is also great.

made new unrelated account - dont reply or message as i never use it.

4y
Jamie_Diamond , what's your opinion? Comment below:

dorsia

What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.

  • 4
4y
Naoki Hanzawa , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Target school people make good employees - especially C-level executives. Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that they are cut out to be billionaires. If you see the list below, more than 53% of the people on this list did not go to target schools.

https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/#version:static

4y
Jamie_Diamond , what's your opinion? Comment below:

NA is also highly regarded, get your shit right bro

What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.

  • 3
4y
ferraripal , what's your opinion? Comment below:

List of boomers and trustfunders != helpful to website full of young Gen Xers, millennials, and Gen Z'ers.

4y
OttoReadmore , what's your opinion? Comment below:

"Comparison is the thief of joy." - Teddy Roosevelt

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
  • 5
4y
NoEquityResearch , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Am I the only one on here that doesn't consider studying for tests, doing your homework, and participating in fun activities such as clubs and sports as "hard work"?

I just don't find getting A's in high school and doing a bunch of clubs and activities all that impressive, especially if it's not even the student pushing for this but their well-educated parents who have planned every step of their life and have paid for a dozen SAT prep courses.

  • 13
4y
Anonymous Monkey , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Completely agree. It always saddens me when I see parents posting online for their kids.

"Jimmy is such a smart boy and needs to go to college! What schools would be best for him? He likes cars and baseball, can't function in

  • 5
4y
JamesBonds , what's your opinion? Comment below:

.

just a monkey trying to find his way in the finance jungle
4y
breezy443 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Totally agree. This hits close to home for me as your example of non-target --> Big 4 audit ---> Advisory ---> MBA is the path I've taken. The difference is I busted my ass at a shitty public high school to get into a decently ranked college and top feeder to the Big4.

Truth is, there were a select few people at my school who got into IB directly out of undergrad, mostly because they knew what the hell IB was through family connections, etc. I assume that's the way it is at Ivies. This knowledge gap is definitely shrinking due to the internet and information sharing, but we still have a long way to go.

Did I need to bust my ass and work a little harder than the private school kid who was the son of an alumni, went through SAT prep courses, and knew what high finance was during middle school? Yes. But I did it, and will continue to do it.

Life isn't fair and some people have a shorter path paved for them than others. Everyone can concoct some slant about how external factors are against them, or how life isn't fair for them specifically, but if you really work at it you can do it and will end up where you belong sooner or later!

4y
returntoforever , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I have a friend who was an immigrant in the country, only started to learn how to speak English at the age of 17 or sth, got into a half decent school because of his half decent grades (his English was not the best back then and his education before then was even worse. His family was lower middle class at best), got into a semi target and busted his bollocks to get into B4 and post B4. Only learned about IB in his final year of uni. Now he's in a BB . His mum was a factory worker.

Some people just came a long long way even tho their achievement may not seem better than kids who have more privileges.

4y
OverCompensatedTeller , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I read that entire post from a "Remember the Titans" perspective. Like, imagine Denzel Washington waking up a bunch of non-targets at 3 am to run from Virginia to Wall Street, and when they get there (6 weeks later) he gives a monologue similar to the OP.

4y
Non-target Neanderthal , what's your opinion? Comment below:
  1. Non-target School
  2. Average GPA (3.5)
  3. Top of League Table Sponsor Leveraged Finance (Analyst > Associate)
  4. Boutique IB (hired as yr.3 - did 1.5yrs)
  5. Middle Market PE (>$2BN AUM, Associate > Senior Associate)

That was my path. Keep your head down and WORK. More importantly though, complement your hard work with personality. Have opinions on deals / handle pressure with a smile / make people laugh at happy hour (with you, not at you; stay 1-2 drinks behind your MDs).

Good luck.

4y
Ozymandia , what's your opinion? Comment below:

I mean there is a fundamental problem in here, right off the bat. In 99.99% of cases, the brand and model of the car you drive won't have a statistically significant impact on your career. Taking on 200k of student debt to go to Harvard versus a free ride to Montana State University (or wherever, apologies if you went there) absolutely will. It's the classic good debt vs bad debt paradigm. Going to Harvard gives you good prestige, helps you network, opens doors. Driving a Range Rover vs a Jeep doesn't.

4y
ferraripal , what's your opinion? Comment below:

These exaggerations about "$200k in debt to go to Ivy " are so ignorant. Elite colleges are filthy rich, with many moving to no loan policies. Nobody at Harvard undergrad has six figures in loans. Avg loans for a Harvard grad is only like $6,000 total!

  • 1
4y
hfgirl112 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Or study computer science and make 300k at Citadel at yr1, and start your own company at yr5 without getting caught in the rat race...prestige shaming is like the faster rats laughing at the slower rats for not running as fast when really all of them should be thinking about getting out of the race altogether

  • 14
4y
CorneliusLux , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Why oh why do so many of you think that you need to go through Big4 audit, then advisory and then MBA to get into some MM PE firm if you come from a non-target? Such a waste of time. I know plenty of people who skipped audit to do Big4 Corp Fin straight out of uni and then moved to MM PE , myself included. Just network smart, get cosy with a top headhunter and rock interviews. The probable answer to my own question is that the people that need 17 moves to land in PE simply don't belong there (getting ready to get thrown some monkey shit for saying this). If you can't get a headhunter's attention after doing hands on work in M&A /capital raising at a Big4 Corp Fin group with good deal flow, the problem isn't the resume, it's you. Take it from someone who took that path and who works with three others who did Big4 advisory before landing associate roles in a 3-6B fund. Some have MBAs , others don't, but the message is the same.

  • 3
4y
CorneliusLux , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Why oh why do so many of you think that you need to go through Big4 audit, then advisory and then MBA to get into some MM PE firm if you come from a non-target? Such a waste of time. I know plenty of people who skipped audit to do Big4 Corp Fin straight out of uni and then moved to MM PE , myself included. Just network smart, get cosy with a top headhunter and rock interviews. The probable answer to my own question is that the people that need 17 moves to land in PE simply don't belong there (getting ready to get thrown some monkey shit for saying this). If you can't get a headhunter's attention after doing hands on work in M&A /capital raising at a Big4 Corp Fin group with good deal flow, the problem isn't the resume, it's you. Take it from someone who took that path and who works with three others who did Big4 advisory before landing associate roles in a 3-6B fund. Some have MBAs , others don't, but the message is the same.

4y
Ozymandia , what's your opinion? Comment below:
CorneliusLux:
Why oh why do so many of you think that you need to go through Big4 audit, then advisory and then MBA to get into some MM PE firm if you come from a non-target? Such a waste of time. I know plenty of people who skipped audit to do Big4 Corp Fin straight out of uni and then moved to MM PE , myself included. Just network smart, get cosy with a top headhunter and rock interviews. The probable answer to my own question is that the people that need 17 moves to land in PE simply don't belong there (getting ready to get thrown some monkey shit for saying this). If you can't get a headhunter's attention after doing hands on work in M&A /capital raising at a Big4 Corp Fin group with good deal flow, the problem isn't the resume, it's you. Take it from someone who took that path and who works with three others who did Big4 advisory before landing associate roles in a 3-6B fund. Some have MBAs , others don't, but the message is the same.

That wasn't the route I took but my thought is that your path to where you are is extremely atypical. People climb the ladder in the way you describe because it's safe and doesn't rely on luck. Lots of jobs available at Big 4, relatively, which means you need to be competent to get in the door but not necessarily have crazy connections, networking skills, or an Ivy League finance degree to land it. From there all you have to do is execute and you can climb that ladder and move up safely. Kudos to you for skipping 5 years of the process, but you make it sound far easier than it is.

4y
tackytech , what's your opinion? Comment below:

The notion of professional prestige is almost only confined to finance, consulting, law, and similar white-collar jobs.

For some jobs, like consulting, it's easy to use for sales, when pitching someone a consultant "Oh, he/she's a top graduate from [prestigious school], has a lot of experience from [prestigious firms] - great match!" Many clients will probably just nod along, and think the clients are super humans that'll solve any problem thrown at them.

For other jobs, it's easy to use as a point for measure. If you have hundreds of applicants, all above minimum threshold, how do you start sorting them out? By school. If someone comes from Harvard, they certainly must be sharper than someone from Podunk State, right?

Not always, obviously, but for the majority, probably. So it's just an easy way to filter out - no real work required.

But that, IMO, can be a big flaw. I 100% believe that once you've crossed a certain level, it doesn't really mater what GPA the candidate has, or where they've gone to school - they're all excellent candidates, and things like GPA essentially becomes a useless measure. That is to say, the correlation between their GPA and job performance will go towards zero.

You might as well just draw candidates randomly, put them on the job, and your production output wouldn't be much more different than if you hand-picked the "best".

Top schools tend to produce more executives because going to a top school will open doors that "lesser" schools doesn't, and it's been like that forever.

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4y
I quit this site because of censorship , what's your opinion? Comment below:

FSU doesn't produce NFL draft picks. FSU recruits elite high school talent that, not surprisingly, produces disproportionate NFL draft picks.

Nobody becomes an executive because their alma mater opens opportunities. People who go to top universities are really smart and really driven. Harvard doesn't produce talent; Harvard recruits talent.

Array

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4y
tackytech , what's your opinion? Comment below:
real_Skankhunt42:
FSU doesn't produce NFL draft picks. FSU recruits elite high school talent that, not surprisingly, produces disproportionate NFL draft picks.

Nobody becomes an executive because their alma mater opens opportunities. People who go to top universities are really smart and really driven. Harvard doesn't produce talent; Harvard recruits talent.

Sure, talented and driven people go to top universities, but let's be real, networking and brand name is what opens the doors. You can find two identical individuals - one going to Harvard, the other community college, and the one from Harvard is going to have all the possibilities to him/ her - just on brand name alone.

I'm sure thousands of highly competent students do not apply for these elite schools, for some reason or another, but they're just as capable and smart as those getting accepted.

And the route to become an executive is very much a predictable one: Go to a decent school -> get a decent first job, work hard -> climb the ranks, or go to business school -> get a management role -> work hard, perform well, and engage in work politics, and maybe you'll reach up to executive level.

Alternatively, you can try to work yourself up, from the bottom, but how many such C-level workers are there?

I won't say that it is the truth, because I don't have data to back it up, but for many talented individuals, their chances at that track is simply infeasible, because the gatekeepers at their first employment deems them unworthy - sometimes just based on their schools. I know many businesses that operate with a strict "we only hire from the following schools" policy, and will bin applicants from lesser schools.

It's not impossible, but your chances are greatly reduced by simply going to the wrong school - and it's not just a western thing. In some Asian countries (Singapore, South-Korea, Japan, China) your whole life is decided by entrance exams - because the employers in those countries put so much weight on the school and your grades.

Now, as for sports, I think there is a much higher correlation between skill and career success.

AFAIK, grades from your school is a not a solid predictor of future work performance. Academia and work are two completely different environments, which reward you on different things.

I'm not saying that people from Ivy League just stumble into C-level positions, but I'm saying that if you have to comparable students, one from Ivy League schools, other from "lesser" schools, then the Ivy League student is going to have a much better chance C-level career trajectory - simply because their alma matter opens up doors which are crucial for that career trajectory .

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4y
ameliastone.pro , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Looks like an outstanding post. I'm too inexperienced to realize how a whole lot reality there may be to it - hopefully, the greater skilled guys will provide their enter. Either manner, thank you for taking the time to write it out.

4y
alasdihsduasdguasduadsys , what's your opinion? Comment below:

Long story short, it's all about information. Most people in this forum are aware how important grades, schools, internships, networks are. If you actually knew this when you were 16, you could have gone to a target (regardless of your location - US, UK, Asia) and you could have had a much better shot at starting at a BB after graduation. The kid that learns about this in his first year is screwed up. As someone else said it, talent rises to the top in the end and in the long term it doesn't matter as much (ignoring md/ceo prospects). Great post, +1

made new unrelated account - dont reply or message as i never use it.

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4y
ReadOrDie , what's your opinion? Comment below:

The take on "prestige" varies hard across the board. I've shared the floor with under-qualified, insecure MDs who would hire ONLY "target" kids thinking that they'll save their ill-skilled asses. Meanwhile, others built armies of state-trained alma mater drones because they wanted to play God. But often there were those that REFUSED to deal with freshly-graduated "targets" because they found them to be "confrontational little assholes", "untrainable thanks to massive bravado", "lazy - riding on school pedigree". Another "prestige" loophole we discovered a few years back are kids who transfer to the targets out of community colleges just to graduate with a branded degree. When you see a 3.6 from a kid like that what you don't realize is he's tanking at the Ivy but his community college 4.0 is pulling him through. Thus, if we hire him just on degree brand, both parties are effed. So, take it for what you will, but I agree with your post. In the end, success works if you work your ass off and get results. Then prestige can neither make nor break you.

4y
WSO Monkey Bot , what's your opinion? Comment below:

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4y
James Equity , what's your opinion? Comment below:

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Odit qui est sint et non aliquam tempore. Reprehenderit consequuntur laboriosam saepe explicabo iusto. Dolore est minus error ut beatae nobis.

4y
polimc14 , what's your opinion? Comment below:

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Fuga aperiam fugit vel optio optio quasi. Dolorum rerum repellendus ducimus labore optio quos non. Unde aut voluptatem occaecati cum. Voluptas dolores vel amet optio ad reiciendis repudiandae voluptas. Qui totam quisquam aliquam culpa sequi ipsum.

Sed sequi qui amet eligendi dolores voluptatem eius amet. Adipisci dolorem in unde consequatur. Ea rerum ullam rerum ipsa quam nihil. Nostrum sed ut sed sunt qui.

2y
Prime Rate Monkey , what's your opinion? Comment below:

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SecretaryofDefense , what's your opinion? Comment below:

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